[Info] NIB Horses

By Retired breeder, 17th November 2009 23:20:05
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It's about time the NIB breeders had their own corner of the world default smiley ;)

Curious about NIB horses? Want to know what a NIB horse is? You've come to the right place!

What is this topic for? NIB enthusiasts to find each other and help one another progress in their respective games.
Otherwise, you may use this topic to help others learn about NIBs, share your experience, and find friends that breed NIBs default smiley :)

Please do not use this topic for advertising horses for sale.

The NIB FAQ:

What is a NIB horse?
A NIB horse is a horse that is not inbred; every horse in its pedigree appears only once (with the exception of Ouranos and Gaia). Horses with "Horse Disappeared" in their pedigree are generally not accepted by NIB breeders unless the horses in question were bought before the horses disappeared and have verifiable pedigrees.

Are there green star NIB horses?
These horses have lower GP than green stars and other top horses, as not inbreeding limits the breeding availability and is slower to progress than breeding brothers to sisters and so forth.
**Misabel edit: The first Green star NIB horse was created on February 21, 2011 - a 6th generation Connemara pony with a star in stamina. He was the end result of a lot of hard work and effort, but now that some dedicated breeders have shown it can be done, we all have something to shoot for!

Are NIB horses considered better than green stars or inbred horses?
Goodness, no! Nobody here is attempting to make that claim. Just like the Zero GP horses, these players choose to play the game in their own challenging way.

How can I get involved with NIB breeding?
It's simple! Start by purchasing a few foundation horses, or horses whose pedigrees can be tracked down and verified as non-inbred. Then carefully breed them to create foals with good GP's and skills that are not inbred!


- Current Top GPs for NIB Horses:
(bred with the *original foundies* who had 350-351.2 GP)

Akhal-Teke: 433.29 (2*)
Appaloosa: 592.04 (10*) 6th Gen
Arabians : 847.17 (31*) 3rd Gen
Argentinean Criollo: 534.37 (7*) 1st Gen
Barbs: 392.93 (1*)
Brumbies: 441.30 (2*)
Canadian: 710.75 (18*) 2nd gen
Curly : 897.50 (33*) 3rd Gen
Donkeys: 300.42
Friesian : 507.78 (6*) 2nd Gen
Gypsy Vanner: 565.03 (9*)
Hackneys: 608.80 (11*) 2nd Gen
Hanoverians: 618.73 (12*)
Holsteiner: 584.14 (11*) 1st gen
Icelandic Horse: 431.19 (1*)
Irish Hunters: 452.22 (2*)
Knabstrupper: 564.89 (8*) 1st gen
KWPN: 414.32 (1*)
Lipizzans: 451.15 (2*)
Lusitanos: 558.72 (10*)
Marwari: 551.66 (8*) 1st gen
Morgans: 411.95 (1*)
Mustangs: 419.50 (1*)
Nokota : 427.57 (2*)
Paints: 461.44 (2*)
Peruvian Paso: 441.91 (2*)
Purebred Spanish Horse : 509.03 (6*) 1st gen
Quarter Horse: 450.30 (2*)
Russian Don: 636.94 (13*)
Shagya Arabian : 767.55 (25*) 5th gen
Standardbreds: 469.76 (3*)
Tennessee Walkers: 378.92 (1*)
Thoroughbred: 1086.54 (52*) 7th Gen
Trakhener: 432.77 (1*)

Australian Pony: 581.44 (9*) 1st gen
Chincoteague Pony : 575.97 (8*) 1st gen
Connemaras: 440.00 (2*)
Fjords: 447.42 (1*)
Haflingers: 496.41 (4*)
Highland Pony: 409.22
Newfoundlands: 417.87 (1*)
Quarter Pony: 477.27 (4*)
Shetland : 591.53 (11*) 1st gen
Welsh: 415.59 (1*)

Percherons: 503.74 (3*)
Shires: 461.15 (2*)
Drum horse: 1911.21 (134*)

- Current Top GPs for NIB Horses:
(bred with the *'new' foundies* who have the higher GP)

Barb : 5010.37 (445*) 2nd gen
Camargue : 4944.16 (438*) 2nd Gen
Canadians: 4019.57 (346*) 3rd gen
Curlys: 4480.67 (391*)
Hanoverian: 5510.41 (494*) 1st Gen
Holsteiner: 4627.18 (405*) 1st Gen
Knabstruppers: 3611.72
Finnish : 7001.13 (*642*) 1st gen
French Trotter: 5674.95 (511*) 2nd gen
Friesian: 4608.48 (404*) 2nd Gen
Lustiano : 4977.80 (441*) 1st gen
Mangalarga Marchador: 7417.82 (685*) 4th gen
Marwari : 5409.48 (484*) 1st Gen
Nokotas: 5283.03 (471*) 3rd Gen
Paint Horse: 3094.08 (252*)
Purebred Spanish Horse : 6045.91 5th gen
Quarter Horse: 3104.63 (253*)
Russian Don: 6747.60 (617*) 1st Gen

Kerry Bog: 3892.85 (332*)
Newfoundland Pony: 6955.84 (639*) 1gen
Welsh: 6844.92 (627*) 2nd Gen

Ban'ei: 7638.35 (707*) 3rd gen
Drum Horse : 2378.86 (181*) 5th Gen
Percheron: 5508.49 (494*) 1st Gen
Shire : 5067.74 (451*) 2nd Gen


Rivenwood's update schedule:
Sundays: Players breeding non-inbred horses may post the GPs of the horses they think are amongst the highest in the breed in this topic. Complete details should include everything listed in the form below. **Please DO NOT Submit GPs for rankings EXCEPT on Sunday!**
Misabel will post the latest high GP's for NIB horses in each breed from the Sunday submissions. Horses will not be named

Please submit your entry to the current high NIB GP using the following format in a post. It is important you use this exact format so Misabel can locate your post easily, or your submission may be missed:

My NIB GP Entry
Horse's Name:
Horse's Breed (purebreds only please):
Current GP:
Link to the Horse's Page:
 
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By Retired breeder, 19th November 2009 23:11:03
I have a foundation Friesian unicorn mare that i would like to breed tomorrow to a foundation uni stallion. If anyone has one please let me know. It might save me a lot of time searching for a stallion.
Also I have a foundation Russian Don stallion if anyone is interested.
Thank you
By Yankee Lady, 20th November 2009 02:20:38
I have been doing NIB breeding since I started playing 2 1/2 years ago, but got out of it for awhile because my EC was taking up too much time. Got into it because my earliest mentors were NIB breeders, and I've been fortunate and have had some wonderful breeding partners along the way. I've worked with Hanos, TBs, PSHes, and for a short time Appy Unis. I hope to soon have a 100 BLUP foundation Irish Hunter stallion ready for stud.
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Right now I am working at developing a large foundation Morgan herd -- with the PSHes I kept running into the problem of not being able to find bloodlines from other breeders that did not include some of my own bloodlines. I couldn't get beyond 5th generation with the PSHes (had 20-25 foundation in base herd), couldn't find anyone else with comparable GPs in unrelated NIB PSHes. So this time I am starting with a MUCH larger foundation herd (trying for 100 foundation Morgans, have 50 through games training so far after culling 7 who couldn't make 351.20 GP for various reasons).
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Because of the problem with "Horse Disappeared" it is more and more important to keep paper records of your horses' bloodlines. That way if some disappear along the way, you still have proof of their being NIB because you have recorded their family history back to Gaia and Ouranos. Unfortunately about a year after I stopped doing generational breeding of the PSHes the records got lost (were in notebook that an aide mistakenly thought was no longer in use as notebook was falling apart, so she threw it into the trash).
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I will be doing the same kind of record keeping, but probably more on computer than on paper, when I start breeding the Morgans. So far I am concentrating on getting them through games training and then into BLUP training (never breed less than 100 BLUP).
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If anyone is interested, I have developed a very strict culling program that enables me to produce higher GP increases between generations. By the time a horse makes it into my breeding program (has made it through 5 or 6 culling points), I KNOW it is the best and capable of producing top foals. Will send it to anyone interested, just send me a PM requesting my NIB culling program.
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Yankee Lady
Yankee Lady
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By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 03:07:48
This is what I was hoping for; people using this thread as help and support. It's great to see so many folks breeding or getting interested in breeding NIB!

I can say having worked with Yankee Lady when I was still regularly playing (we bred PSH's together) that she certainly knows her stuff and is a wealth of information. I would recommend anybody who wants to really get into NIBs and be on the fast track for top GPs speak to her, the program she runs is very efficient! YL, thanks for sharing it with everybody, you're an asset to NIBers everywhere!

There is also a site out there that up until summer of 2008 tracked Howrse horse bloodlines and would tell you if the horse had multiple common ancestors, or if it was not inbred. I still have the site information and it is still running...that's the benefit of being married to the creator default smiley ;) I know the site is safe but I will check and see if it could be added to the post here. The great part about it is old horses bred before summer 2008 that may now be listed as Ouranos and Gaia, or "Horse disappeared" have their full pedigrees logged and accounted for on that database, so there's no question about the bloodline history.

As far as I have seen, NIB horses retain their value for longer than top GP horses. A month after the highest stars are bred, the next star level comes, making horses with one star less than the top obsolete. I have bred horses with 5, 6, 7, 10 GP points under the top ranked NIBs and were sold for a fair amount of money and passes, because the bloodlines were rare and sought after by NIB folks. I have also bought NIBs with 5 GP less than the top ranked NIB for the respective breed for several thousand equus and Nyx Packs, because the horse was 100 blup and proven with good skills and it introduced new blood into my own program. So NIBs tend to not be a waste of equus or passes comparatively default smiley :)

(Please note I am *not* putting down people who choose to breed the top GP's or their horses, I am simply citing the differences between top GP and NIB breeding. Everybody is perfectly entitled and should play their game the way they see fit, that is the spirit of Howrse default smiley :) )
By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 03:25:08
default smiley ^)i am realy good with breeding horsesdefault smiley ^)
Grace6default smiley (b)
By Yankee Lady, 20th November 2009 06:34:05
Rivenwood,
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You have me blushing default smiley :$. I have lots of fond memories during the period we were breeding partners (kind of, we both were pretty busy at the time and couldn't do as much breeding as either of us wanted) on the PSHes.
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I have already sent the culling program to one requestor. It is NOT an easy program to follow, but if enough people would like to have it, and Rivenwood, if you would like me to post it here, I can do so. But over time I have found few people who are as strict as I am about culling horses that don't make certain goals, and unless you are willing to ALWAYS cull ANY horse that can't make a goal, the program won't work right.
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Just let me know if you want it posted here.
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Yankee Lady
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By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 09:23:52
This is a great topic, thank you Rivenwood! default smiley :)
I am breeding NIB Arabians mainly, but I also have a few NIB PSHs, and some foundation Friesian unicorns, and foundies from the new breeds. Feel free to look at them. default smiley ;)
By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 10:34:38
I've been thinking about NIB for a while, but wasn't sure how to get started.

Could anyone give me a rundown of how I would go about getting started, and suggest some breeds?

Also, if anyone could explain to me the nitpicky details of GP and breeding, I'd appreciate it. I'm not that good at telling if one sibling is better than another etc.

Also, would it be possible to do NIB with only day to day BLUPPING?
By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 10:54:17
I've bred a few 1st gen NIBs, but I'm not really sure what to do next as I only have one foundie of each breed...default smiley (lol)
By sleepingrose, 20th November 2009 11:27:35
Yankee Lady, I will be PMing you - I certainly need help with judging what needs to be culled.
I'm still only at the stage of gathering as many 351.2-capable foundation foals as poss (with a few in reserve that will only make 0.8 as backup, just in case the foundation horse well runs dry and I need new blood). But after that, I'm clueless other than ensuring I fully BLUP before breeding.

Rivenwood, I love this thread. Exactly what I needed to motivate me! Thank you.
sleepingrose
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By abc_s_mom, 20th November 2009 14:07:43
Rivenwood>> I used that site quite a bit when I was doing my TB's! But when they changes the graphics or whatever it was, it wouldn't work properly. Maybe a nudge to the spouse about everyone wanting it back would be beneficial? LOL!

I had sold off most of my NIB TB's, but my youngest daughter had bought a few of them. And my other two daughters haven't played in a while, so I will be asking them to reserve their horses for me. Unfortunately, they found other sites that they have been playing.

Right now I have two sets of foundation Friesian unicorns, the first mare out of my original horse, I think one each of the new breeds, and maybe a few others that I can't think of at the moment! I am seriously thinking of restarting my NIB lines. This topic has made me excited about NIBing again!

abc
abc_s_mom
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By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 14:50:25
Although I don't really like inbreeding, I've had a hard time not doing it with my mustangs. Actually, I did do it. Why? Because my mare's son was the highest GP mustang I could find to breed her with! I didn't want to wait for other players to put their high GP horses up for public coverings.

I think I eventually found out that the foals were even more inbred then I thought. Oh well. It's kind of funny. default smiley :)
By always, 20th November 2009 17:42:33
Moondale - yes, one of the big things with non-inbreeding is the patience of getting enough different lined horses to the right level.
always
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By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 18:11:05
I have just bought a 2nd generation Connnemara uni, whom I am planning on BLUPing soon.

But, I have have quite a few foundation Hanoverians that I have been breeding. default smiley :)
By Yankee Lady, 20th November 2009 20:06:52
For all those who are planning to or already doing NIB Morgans, I am working at having a base foundation breeding herd of 100 foundation Morgans. Once I have them all trained I will have approximately 25 studs to choose from for coverings (trying for 3/4 broodmare 1/4 stud mix). So far I have gotten 50 through games training and am trying to decide whether to continue games training with 2nd half or do BLUPing 1st half. But hopefully by Christmas I will have a number of studs available for other Morgan NIBers.
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I'm doing such large number as all too often in the pass I've hit the roof on NIBing because I couldn't find bloodlines I hadn't already used by the time I hit the 5th generation -- usually had like 20 in base foundation herds.
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Something else to consider. You will also find setting up a naming system in order to help you keep track of generation and parentage of each horse VERY useful. If you want my system on that (which I am still trying to get written up as it can be hard to explain), ask me about it in about 3 weeks (because of holidays). Basically with my system that I've developed for the Morgans, I can just look at a horse's name and know its generation and parents. Have been working on this system through many groups of NIB breedings, and think I have finally worked the bugs out of it.
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Yankee Lady
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By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 20:21:29
I am SO excited about this forum. I have been trying to breed NIB Hackneys for a while and I would love to hear what Yankee Lady and others can suggest.

When I first started out I was purchasing other peoples horses that were NIB and now I am finding myself with 100 BLUPed horses that have disappeared ancestors. I did not keep paper records, so I now consider them worthless for my project. I have to admit it is a great let down. Maybe we can get the word out to HOWRSE that it would be nice if those horses automatically went to SH instead of disappearing.

Rivenwood: for the Sunday list are you including horses with disappeared ancestors?
By spanishroses4u, 20th November 2009 20:35:55
I'm a 0GP breeder, and on my way to read the updates in my "group" forum, I decided to stop by here and find out what NIB really was. I've always wondered, and the concept for me was always, breed foundies together and get a horse with foundie parents. I never knew what came next, though. default smiley (lol) As I am a "dappler" and tend to try everything, I was considering trying NIB...and then I read this and changed my mind!

It's really a lot of hard work that requires some serious dedication from y'all! I just want to give you all kudos for the work you've done on this project. I won't be joining your ranks, but I will keep up with you and I do support you all! I don't know what I could do, but if you ever need anything, just let me know. Sometimes I have foundies or run across them in my 0GP work, so I may have something you could use.

Keep up the good work!default smiley (y)default smiley :-))
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By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 20:42:25
I do NIB as it allows me to actually play the game at my own pace. I just can't keep up with the gp race.

I love my NIB horses. I have QH, Chinco and Paints. I did have Appys but never did anything with them.

I have foundies and some that I have bred that are at a bit higher GP.
By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 20:46:23
LoloJean - I'll offer you a few tips to get yourself started, hopefully you'll find them to be beneficial default smiley :)

I'd recommend starting with a breed that has a really large base of foundations; the horses available at sign up are great, because there are always new 'foundies' added to the game. It doesn't really matter which breed your choose, but it's always nice to have horses that blup easier than others.

If you can locate them in sales, buy at least 10 foundies to start with, preferably 4 stallions and 6 mares. I would encourage you to consider increasing this number to 25, 8 stallions and 16-17 mares, for a broader and more solid base.

GP isn't tough; NIB breeding is primarily about great skills and good GP while keeping the horse's bloodlines 'clean'; no inbreeding. Once you have your second and third generations of foals, you should be within 5-6 points of the top GP, and have foals that are valuable as they come from your own lines, something rare other breeders will want to use to expand on. By the 5th to 6th generation (if you started today and worked hard the next week), you could be very close to the top GP bracket and at least over 360GP. I achieved over 360GP at my 4th/5th generation on my connies default smiley :)

You can successfully breed NIBs by only blupping one horse a day, or even just a few horses per week. I had not touched my connies for months and in August/September decided to play with them a bit again. Within 2 weeks I had blupped 3 or 4 horses and was getting foals off them that I sold for a fair bit of money and a few passes each. So, unlike the top ranked GP races, there is a lot less pressure to blup several horses per day. Your horses are still valuable and workable. I get requests to breed to my several-year-old foundations still from NIB breeders, and some of them have under 350.2GP.
By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 20:56:58
Thank you, spanishroses4u! I wish you luck in your zero GP quest! if you have foundies available, please consider posting some breedings occasionally, I am sure lots of NIB folks would love to tap into the resource of new lines default smiley :)
By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 21:01:49
This is wonderful - thanks for this opportunity for us NIB breeders to share our worlddefault smiley (y)default smiley ^) I only really breed NIB Welsh ponies but I do have one NIB Arab stally whom I bought as a foal and have brought on myself. I only have three NIB Welsh left now. My last of the line I have made immortal and he's very special to me. I shall post his details as requested on Sunday. I am really keen to find NIB Welsh breeding partners but the gene pool seems to be diminishing these days but I live in hopedefault smiley :)

Please do PM me if you can help me continue my NIB Welsh breeding lines.

Thanks again, Rivenwooddefault smiley (y)
By Retired breeder, 20th November 2009 21:04:35
Oops, also I have one NIB Friesian uni mare - blupped and bold and ready to breeddefault smiley ^)
By spanishroses4u, 20th November 2009 21:04:58
Thanks Rivenwood! That's a good idea...default smiley (lol) I never considered posting the coverings from foundies. The only problem is that rarely do I train my foundies because once they've been bred, they go into a sort of "rest" where I don't touch them and focus on my newer additions. (Since with 0GP we don't train like others). Maybe I'll train some of them and offer coverings. If anybody sees anything they like on my farm that are foundies, PM me. If I'm not breeding with them, I won't mind parting with them and you're welcome to have them to help you on your way! Good luck!
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By vag111, 20th November 2009 23:02:12
I'm very happy that a NIB post has opened up here. Yankee Lady actually told me about it just a little while ago. I collect GA horses and am also trying to start some NIB Brumbies. They are proving very difficult to BLUP because they are such a new breed with much lower GPs than other breeds. My Stallion (Sahara) is coming along, but only has about 4 competition wins. Can't wait until the new competition restrictions come out! If anyone has tips for getting the Brumbies their wins let me know! I'll be checking back here regularly, hopefully with more progress made.

-vag111
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By Yankee Lady, 20th November 2009 23:44:49
One thing that can help with getting more for your horses in sales. When you are putting up a foundation horse for sale, always include the word FOUNDATION in the comment/description. That will get attention -- there are many people, including me, always on the look out for more foundations.
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When selling NIB horses be sure to note in the comment/description that it IS an NIB horse. When a horse looks good it can be so time consuming going and looking up its family tree to know whether or not it is NIB. Be sure to label your horses correctly in the sales and I think you will see a difference in your sales pricing.
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But BEWARE. There are some players who will label their horses either foundation or NIB when they are anything but. So unless you recognize the seller as someone you know that would only label horses as such if true, always check the horse's family tree. Also its genetics -- a lot of horses out there being sold as purebred are anything but. Came across one the other day that was a mix of 5 different breeds, but labeled as purebred. Since the seller was a new player I didn't report her, just sent her a letter informing her that her horse wasn't purebred as advertised. I am not sure if players under riding level 4 can see that part of the genetic information, I know there are a number of things they can't see, but it has been too long since I was that level that I don't remember about breeds. I don't think you have any recourse to negate a sale when you buy a supposed purebred only to find it is a crossbreed. Nothing wrong with crossbreeds, unless you are looking for purebreds.
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Be nice to your fellow players. Make crossbreeds as crossbreeds in the comment section (don't have to list the breeds, just that it is not a purebred -- I'll say something like "Arabian crossbreed" in the comment section). Lots of players out there prefer crossbreeds and you'll get their attention that way.
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Marking your horse as foundation or NIB DOES help sell it and often makes a substantial difference in pricing if your timing is right.
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Yankee Lady
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By always, 20th November 2009 23:56:45
I'm currently working on a pricing guide for foundation horses of different breeds and am developing lists of foundation horses for sale in the auctions in my forum. Let me know if you ever need help checking the genetics of a horse, as I know some quick ways to check.
always
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